cunt
Full Member
rudeboy, never cause no trouble
Posts: 192
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Post by cunt on Jun 12, 2008 13:49:28 GMT
Shit i cant register the RFA2 form has to be completed and handed in to the council 15 days before the poll to register tut tut tut.... same goes for you bob You'll have this big mad discussion about it and your not even registered I went and gave it a no this mornin anyway avril doyle stopped myself and a few mates on the town trying to get us to vote yes all she really said was "we own it to the EU, your sons of the Celtic Tiger", I thought that kinda made it sound like 'Yeah, I know its a raw deal but the EU have got us by the balls. If Fine Gael get in power we're going end up turning around to the EU looking for funding and its gonna be a lot easier if we were supporting this treaty." We asked her about our neutrality and she said that we wont lose it but I mean we already have US planes filling up in Shannon Airport, I believe it will effect our neutrality
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Post by Nailer on Jun 12, 2008 15:02:05 GMT
I believe it will effect our neutrality No it wont. From the treaty: "Ireland's traditional policy of military neutrality is maintained. Nothing in the Reform Treaty changes this. Ireland's position on the question of an EU common defence is clear. Under our constitution Ireland cannot participate in a common defence without the prior consent of the people in a referendum."
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Post by Barry on Jun 12, 2008 16:30:58 GMT
I'm off to vote in a few. I was looking over some of Labours reasons to vote yes, a lot of them seem like they should really be in place already and as far as I know they are (prevention of discrimination to people with disabilities, I'm sure if the treaty doesn't pass there will be a way to sort of improving matters like y'know?). The whole crock about the treaty helping Europe being more effective in fighting climate change...well is a crock of shit, there was only a handful of meaningless words added to the original text relating to climate change. I'd have to agree with you Nailer that a lot of the focus from the no campaigners has been on how it would adversely affect Ireland and it's fairly shortsighted but I guess it still is a valid argument. But then really the only way to make it fair would be to let every country have a referendum of their own instead of putting all this pressure on Ireland.
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Post by kevinkav on Jun 12, 2008 16:45:25 GMT
Well lads,if this treaty is passed there's going to be plenty of things that our government won't be able to do a thing about,least of all us the voters. We're handing over a good bit of power,to be fair,in particular the right for referendum on certain issues. As (Surprisingly enough) Eamon Dunphy said in the paper today: "The European project is in trouble. The point of it in the first place was for the people to have an understanding of what is going on and for it to be run democratically,which wasn't the case with this referendum."
This isn't in the best interest of European people in my opinion. I voted no,anyway
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Post by Cian on Jun 12, 2008 19:12:53 GMT
well i found out today that i was registered. some census/referendum guy came a while ago and me ma signed me up. voted no as promised, so hopefully it was worth the effort
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Post by Nailer on Jun 13, 2008 10:48:39 GMT
Looks like the No vote has won! Some people in the wexford counting station told my ma, and RTE and others are starting to say thats it's "almost certain". Apparently they've counted everywhere but Brian Cowen's constituency, and the no vote is winning by such a majority that no matter what the result there it'll still win. Looks like no one wants Lisbon then! well there ya go
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Post by Barry on Jun 13, 2008 11:33:07 GMT
Yeah I just got back from work switched on RTE one and heard the news. Now.
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Post by Bob Himself on Jun 14, 2008 1:12:07 GMT
Here we go. Everyone's blaming Ireland, as I expected. Well fuck the lot of ye (not the people on this board, I mean the European Politicians, silly!). Scapegoating the Irish, fair play. Fuckers!
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Post by Barry on Jun 14, 2008 10:02:39 GMT
Here's a few reactions:
In a joint statement last night, Dr Merkel and French president Nicolas Sarkozy said: "With all due respect, we take note of the democratic decision of the Irish citizens, even if we regret it."
Sources close to Mr Sarkozy said there were only two solutions: for the Irish to vote again, or for an as yet undefined legal mechanism to bind Ireland to EU institutions if Ireland does not ratify the treaty.
While Dr Merkel was conciliatory, her coalition partners, the Social Democrats (SPD), were more blunt. The party's foreign minister, Frank Walter Steinmeier, said the result was a "severe setback" while a party colleague called it a "catastrophe".
"With all respect for the Irish vote, we cannot allow the huge majority of Europe to be duped by a minority of a minority of a minority," said Axel Schäfer, SPD leader in the Bundestag committee on EU affairs.
"We are incredibly disappointed. We think it is a real cheek that the country that has benefited most from the EU should do this. There is no other Europe than this treaty."
Italian President Giorgio Napolitano was equally critical, calling for states obstructing integration to be left out of the EU. "Now is the time for a courageous choice by those who want coherent progress in building Europe, leaving out those who despite solemn, signed pledges threaten to block it," he said in a statement.
The Croatian president, Stipe Mesic, expressed disappointment in Ireland. "Now that they have used the accession and structural funds, when they have developed enormously, I'm a little surprised that the solidarity is at an end," said Mr Mesic.
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Post by Nailer on Jun 14, 2008 15:23:53 GMT
With all respect for the Irish vote, we cannot allow the huge majority of Europe to be duped by a minority of a minority of a minority, said Axel Schäfer, SPD leader in the Bundestag committee on EU affairs. We are incredibly disappointed. We think it is a real cheek that the country that has benefited most from the EU should do this. The Croatian president, Stipe Mesic, expressed disappointment in Ireland. Now that they have used the accession and structural funds, when they have developed enormously, I'm a little surprised that the solidarity is at an end, said Mr Mesic. Would have to agree with these statements, especially the emboldened one.
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Post by Barry on Jun 14, 2008 15:52:51 GMT
I don't agree with the first one there, we disappointed the majority of the politicians (bohohohoho), who knows if we disappointed the majority of the citizens who didn't get their chance to have a direct say. Fuck cheek, we had the right to reject it, maybe if the main parties here explained the treaty better it might have passed. They knew how confused a good chunk of the electorate were and still are, so they threw a bunch of pleasant sounding overly simplistic shite or the exact opposite at us, there really wasn't much of a middle ground. They can blame them fucking selves.
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Post by Bob Himself on Jun 15, 2008 0:26:39 GMT
"We think it is a real cheek that the country that has benefited most from the EU should do this."
What did we do wrong? You'd swear we had voted no to the European Union or something, fuck sake. We had every right to vote no.
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Post by kevinkav on Jun 15, 2008 1:06:39 GMT
Nailer no offence,but how could you agree with that? Fair enough,you've made it clear that you don't agree with a minority (of a minority of a minority) deciding Europe's fate on this. But we were left with no other choice really. The campaigns were jokes on both sides,almost everyone I knew voted no on principle of not knowing what was going on (Myself included). A bunch of politicians complaining because the EU dragged us out of the third world is a load of shit. Just because we are 'children of the celtic tiger' as the elitist Avril Doyle put it,doesn't mean we havn't got the right to vote out a poorly explained document. I mean it IS ironic that we voted it out,but far from unexpected or ilogical.
"Now that they have used the accession and structural funds, when they have developed enormously, I'm a little surprised that the solidarity is at an end" Could you honestly believe we used these funds and then voted no because we had benefited enough already? You 'emboldened' and agreed with that like. I firmly believe this was rejected 'cause the campaigns were shit.
We're not duping or disrespecting anyone in Europe by exercising our right to kick our crappy government in the arse if they can't explain a shitty document to us,no matter how ironic it is.
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Post by Nailer on Jun 15, 2008 16:40:23 GMT
Nailer no offence,but how could you agree with that? Fair enough,you've made it clear that you don't agree with a minority (of a minority of a minority) deciding Europe's fate on this. But we were left with no other choice really. The campaigns were jokes on both sides,almost everyone I knew voted no on principle of not knowing what was going on (Myself included). A bunch of politicians complaining because the EU dragged us out of the third world is a load of shit. Just because we are 'children of the celtic tiger' as the elitist Avril Doyle put it,doesn't mean we havn't got the right to vote out a poorly explained document. I mean it IS ironic that we voted it out,but far from unexpected or ilogical. "Now that they have used the accession and structural funds, when they have developed enormously, I'm a little surprised that the solidarity is at an end" Could you honestly believe we used these funds and then voted no because we had benefited enough already? You 'emboldened' and agreed with that like. I firmly believe this was rejected 'cause the campaigns were shit. We're not duping or disrespecting anyone in Europe by exercising our right to kick our crappy government in the arse if they can't explain a shitty document to us,no matter how ironic it is. Avrl Doyle is actually pretty nice, what has she said or done to make you think she's elitist? And yeah I agree, it was rejected largely because the campaign on the pro treaty side was wishy washy rubbish, and the campaign on the anti treaty side was full of lies. But that being said, I just think we owe it to the EU to not use igoranance as an excuse. I mean, the country is built off the back of European countries money. With that in mind, I dont think ignorance is really any sort of excuse to be honest. Don't get me wrong, the whole thing was a shambles from the beginning, and the irish governments explanation and handling of the treaty was very poor. Fair enough. But instead of taking the easy option out, blaming the government for not explaining it well enough, voting no and then getting on with it, why not make an effort? My point would be that we have grinded the whole of europe the a halt, not because we, as a population, disagree with it's direction, but because we don't exactly know whats going on. I just thought I owed it to the EU as an institution, going on how good its been for me and for Ireland, to put some thought into this. I knew nothing about the treaty really, and the road signs and advertisements did little to help that. But I read both the booklets that came through my letterbox, the anti treaty booklet I got handed from that Irish socialist group that post on here, and then I spent two and a half hours on the internet Google searching "Lisbon Treaty" and reading what I found. Then I made an informed decision. I didn't really pay a massive deal of attention the countless EU suits on the tv telling me how great it was, nor did I pay a great deal of attention to Sinn Fein telling me how we were selling out our country. And it wasnt as if I wasnt busy or had spare time, I was doing my leaving at the time like! Sure enough, the government dropped the ball here, and the campaigns were poor. But do we really need to be spoon fed to such a degree that we'll throw our toys out of the pram and slap a big fat petulant no on that piece of paper because we dont understand it? Legislation HAS to be relatively simplistic and available. This legislation was not, and that is a massive problem. However, that didnt render it impossible to make an informed decision seeing as it was our responsibility to do so, due to how much we've benefied. Fair enough if you disagree with the treaty, exercise your democratic right and vote no. But i think we owe it to the EU to be a little bit more grown up about the whole thing than blaming our government.
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Post by AdRo on Jun 15, 2008 21:58:03 GMT
campaign on the anti treaty side was full of lies. thats bullshit nailer and you know it!!! both sides basically made up their arguments cause no one knew anything about the treaty.even the information they got was vauge plus jabba cowen admitted that he never even read the treaty but yet he threatened people in his party if they did not side with him there would be consequences.we can't have a leader like that.
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Post by Nailer on Jun 16, 2008 0:00:31 GMT
campaign on the anti treaty side was full of lies. thats bullshit nailer and you know it!!! both sides basically made up their arguments cause no one knew anything about the treaty.even the information they got was vauge plus jabba cowen admitted that he never even read the treaty but yet he threatened people in his party if they did not side with him there would be consequences.we can't have a leader like that. That seems very sweeping taken out of context,so anyone viewing this quote, read my whole post! But naw adro, it was. Selective information, call it what you will. As for cowen, ah yeah, I dont have any great respect for him either. Chances are all he read was the same as anyone else, which wasn't really up to scratch to be honest. But eh... "threatening people in his party if they did not side with him"... thats basically how every political party works. They even employ a party whip to make sure everyone tows the line. Thats the situation with every world leader.
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Post by kevinkav on Jun 16, 2008 0:29:01 GMT
Nailer no offence,but how could you agree with that? Fair enough,you've made it clear that you don't agree with a minority (of a minority of a minority) deciding Europe's fate on this. But we were left with no other choice really. The campaigns were jokes on both sides,almost everyone I knew voted no on principle of not knowing what was going on (Myself included). A bunch of politicians complaining because the EU dragged us out of the third world is a load of shit. Just because we are 'children of the celtic tiger' as the elitist Avril Doyle put it,doesn't mean we havn't got the right to vote out a poorly explained document. I mean it IS ironic that we voted it out,but far from unexpected or ilogical. "Now that they have used the accession and structural funds, when they have developed enormously, I'm a little surprised that the solidarity is at an end" Could you honestly believe we used these funds and then voted no because we had benefited enough already? You 'emboldened' and agreed with that like. I firmly believe this was rejected 'cause the campaigns were shit. We're not duping or disrespecting anyone in Europe by exercising our right to kick our crappy government in the arse if they can't explain a shitty document to us,no matter how ironic it is. Avrl Doyle is actually pretty nice, what has she said or done to make you think she's elitist? And yeah I agree, it was rejected largely because the campaign on the pro treaty side was wishy washy rubbish, and the campaign on the anti treaty side was full of lies. But that being said, I just think we owe it to the EU to not use igoranance as an excuse. I mean, the country is built off the back of European countries money. With that in mind, I dont think ignorance is really any sort of excuse to be honest. Don't get me wrong, the whole thing was a shambles from the beginning, and the irish governments explanation and handling of the treaty was very poor. Fair enough. But instead of taking the easy option out, blaming the government for not explaining it well enough, voting no and then getting on with it, why not make an effort? My point would be that we have grinded the whole of europe the a halt, not because we, as a population, disagree with it's direction, but because we don't exactly know whats going on. I just thought I owed it to the EU as an institution, going on how good its been for me and for Ireland, to put some thought into this. I knew nothing about the treaty really, and the road signs and advertisements did little to help that. But I read both the booklets that came through my letterbox, the anti treaty booklet I got handed from that Irish socialist group that post on here, and then I spent two and a half hours on the internet Google searching "Lisbon Treaty" and reading what I found. Then I made an informed decision. I didn't really pay a massive deal of attention the countless EU suits on the tv telling me how great it was, nor did I pay a great deal of attention to Sinn Fein telling me how we were selling out our country. And it wasnt as if I wasnt busy or had spare time, I was doing my leaving at the time like! Sure enough, the government dropped the ball here, and the campaigns were poor. But do we really need to be spoon fed to such a degree that we'll throw our toys out of the pram and slap a big fat petulant no on that piece of paper because we dont understand it? Legislation HAS to be relatively simplistic and available. This legislation was not, and that is a massive problem. However, that didnt render it impossible to make an informed decision seeing as it was our responsibility to do so, due to how much we've benefied. Fair enough if you disagree with the treaty, exercise your democratic right and vote no. But i think we owe it to the EU to be a little bit more grown up about the whole thing than blaming our government. Avril Doyle's posters alone are enough to make one think she's elitist. Many qoutes and things she's done and said that I'm not going to get into. Fair fucks to you for going and making an informed decision about it. You and I both know that half the voting population (at least) isn't going to 'get' the Lisbon Treaty if they read through it,though. I commend those who were capable of making an informed decision themselves - It's much better than not voting at all! But it's the government's job to deliver this treaty on behalf of the EU to those who can't/won't understand it. I think I'm right in saying that the average Joe Soap won it for the no side. Actually expecting the electorate to go and make an effort before they voted is about as ideologically hopeful as you may percieve it to be for an Anarchist to hope for a respectable/educated response if they put their point of view forward
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Post by Nailer on Jun 16, 2008 10:59:06 GMT
Avrl Doyle is actually pretty nice, what has she said or done to make you think she's elitist? And yeah I agree, it was rejected largely because the campaign on the pro treaty side was wishy washy rubbish, and the campaign on the anti treaty side was full of lies. But that being said, I just think we owe it to the EU to not use igoranance as an excuse. I mean, the country is built off the back of European countries money. With that in mind, I dont think ignorance is really any sort of excuse to be honest. Don't get me wrong, the whole thing was a shambles from the beginning, and the irish governments explanation and handling of the treaty was very poor. Fair enough. But instead of taking the easy option out, blaming the government for not explaining it well enough, voting no and then getting on with it, why not make an effort? My point would be that we have grinded the whole of europe the a halt, not because we, as a population, disagree with it's direction, but because we don't exactly know whats going on. I just thought I owed it to the EU as an institution, going on how good its been for me and for Ireland, to put some thought into this. I knew nothing about the treaty really, and the road signs and advertisements did little to help that. But I read both the booklets that came through my letterbox, the anti treaty booklet I got handed from that Irish socialist group that post on here, and then I spent two and a half hours on the internet Google searching "Lisbon Treaty" and reading what I found. Then I made an informed decision. I didn't really pay a massive deal of attention the countless EU suits on the tv telling me how great it was, nor did I pay a great deal of attention to Sinn Fein telling me how we were selling out our country. And it wasnt as if I wasnt busy or had spare time, I was doing my leaving at the time like! Sure enough, the government dropped the ball here, and the campaigns were poor. But do we really need to be spoon fed to such a degree that we'll throw our toys out of the pram and slap a big fat petulant no on that piece of paper because we dont understand it? Legislation HAS to be relatively simplistic and available. This legislation was not, and that is a massive problem. However, that didnt render it impossible to make an informed decision seeing as it was our responsibility to do so, due to how much we've benefied. Fair enough if you disagree with the treaty, exercise your democratic right and vote no. But i think we owe it to the EU to be a little bit more grown up about the whole thing than blaming our government. Avril Doyle's posters alone are enough to make one think she's elitist. Many qoutes and things she's done and said that I'm not going to get into. Fair fucks to you for going and making an informed decision about it. You and I both know that half the voting population (at least) isn't going to 'get' the Lisbon Treaty if they read through it,though. I commend those who were capable of making an informed decision themselves - It's much better than not voting at all! But it's the government's job to deliver this treaty on behalf of the EU to those who can't/won't understand it. I think I'm right in saying that the average Joe Soap won it for the no side. Actually expecting the electorate to go and make an effort before they voted is about as ideologically hopeful as you may percieve it to be for an Anarchist to hope for a respectable/educated response if they put their point of view forward You sure its not cos she looks angry in her posters and lives in a big house with lots of money? I mean, im fairly sure you couldnt find me one single soundbite to suggest that she's elitist, its just kinda supposition. But yeah, whatever, doesnt really matter anyway! Yeah your right, always maintained that the govt. dropped the ball here, I've said that all along, that the whole treaty was not made accesible enough. Like I said, id just be of the mindset that, even though it was a problem, it wasnt one big enough to make every joe soap vote no our of petulance. But, who the fuck am I, eh? Doesnt really matter now anyway. Im sure we'll have a "Ireland get kicked out of Europe and Brian Cowen is found murdered with a big "S" for Sarkozy slashed into his substantial gut" thread in a few weeks to keep us occupied.
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Post by kevinkav on Jun 16, 2008 18:43:51 GMT
"Poor people shouldn't be allowed to breath air+I was for Hitler" Avril said that to me on the street the other day.
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