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Post by Barry on Apr 22, 2008 0:43:26 GMT
So since we're the only country (which is fairly ridiculous to say the least) in the EU to have a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty (that is if you disregard the previous referendums on the EU constitution, which was more or less the same as the Lisbon Treaty) I take it a few of you are going to vote on it. Anyone made up their minds on the way they're going to vote? Might as well get some sort of discussion going about it.
I think the referendum is being held on the 12th of June.
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Post by JohnnyChrist on Apr 22, 2008 1:08:59 GMT
Yeah Il probably vote for it, but I truly dont have a fucking clue what its about, ive tried to look it up but all ive found are giant mounds of bollox... Can we theoretically reject this then? Would we not be like... kicked out of the E.U.?
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Post by Barry on Apr 22, 2008 1:11:56 GMT
Nope we can't be legally kicked out of the EU if we reject it. And yeah getting your head around it is a pain in the ass. I think I'll vote no anyway, at least for the fact that it makes absolutely no sense to vote in favour of something that I can't fully understand.
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Post by kevinkav on Apr 22, 2008 11:27:59 GMT
The government finally sent out bi-lingual booklets pertaining this treaty yesterday,or maybe it was the end of last week. Regardless,the handling of everything has been appaling. And what they did send out was nothing more than propaganda and bullshit. I've been 'no' for months now,and I'm not changing my mind. I wanted to do flyers down town at some stage,'cause I know Tony Dempsey'll be killing it for Fianna Fáil at some stage.
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Post by Barry on Apr 22, 2008 12:10:35 GMT
Does anyone else find what Brian Cowen says here fairly strange? “The wording simply obliges us to respect the obligations we have signed up to. It represents common sense and is so basic that it is to be found in the constitutional law of every member country. In fact you cannot be a member without it.” If we've already "signed up" what's the need for the treaty? Like he seems to be blatantly over simplifying the whole thing or just outright lying. There's more to this than just "obliging us to respect our obligations". What a dickhead.
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Post by JohnnyChrist on Apr 22, 2008 12:38:36 GMT
Thats more or less what I meant, if we dont accept it what'll happen, we're surely not going to stand before the might of the European Empire and stick the middle finger up like....!
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Post by JohnnyChrist on Apr 22, 2008 12:40:25 GMT
Did anyone see that 'Your Views' thing in the People paper actually, where they asked a load of people down town if they knew anything about it? It was appauling, everyone was like "Ehm.... look at the time, gotta run!"
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Post by Barry on Apr 22, 2008 18:10:53 GMT
Here's the reason we are the only country to have a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty, if this case had never happened the treaty would have probably been ratified already. "the Irish referendum arises from the 1986 Crotty case, a constitutional action which was taken before the Irish Supreme Court by the late Raymond Crotty, the economist. He took that action when the Irish politicians of that time attempted to ratify the Single European Act Treaty by majority vote of the Irish Parliament. Crotty contended that this EU Treaty entailed a surrender of sovereignty which would lead to a diminution of his rights as an Irish citizen, and that only the Irish people themselves could agree to that. As they were the repositories of sovereignty under the Irish Constitution, only they could surrender it." Here's the whole article, it's quite good: www.brusselsjournal.com/node/2758
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Post by Nailer on Apr 22, 2008 19:00:38 GMT
Here's the reason we are the only country to have a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty, if this case had never happened the treaty would have probably been ratified already. "the Irish referendum arises from the 1986 Crotty case, a constitutional action which was taken before the Irish Supreme Court by the late Raymond Crotty, the economist. He took that action when the Irish politicians of that time attempted to ratify the Single European Act Treaty by majority vote of the Irish Parliament. Crotty contended that this EU Treaty entailed a surrender of sovereignty which would lead to a diminution of his rights as an Irish citizen, and that only the Irish people themselves could agree to that. As they were the repositories of sovereignty under the Irish Constitution, only they could surrender it." Here's the whole article, it's quite good: www.brusselsjournal.com/node/2758Fari play to your man for making an effort, but what a moron. The single european act is probably the most important political landmark in Irish economic history. It basically laid the foundations for our entire economy, without it we would be so fucked. I can think of barely anything which has benefited Ireland so much. It's also funny that he would complain about and elected government making this decision. I agree with referenda (referendi....?) but this was a pretty clear cut decision.
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Post by Barry on Apr 22, 2008 19:22:01 GMT
I'd say one of the main reasons he bothered bring it to court was to outline that it was unconstitutional to not put the decision to referendum. I think there's a definite advantage in that we now have to have a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. We basically have to make up the minds of the whole EU, no pressure like.
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Post by Nailer on Apr 22, 2008 19:42:01 GMT
I'd say one of the main reasons he bothered bring it to court was to outline that it was unconstitutional to not put the decision to referendum. I think there's a definite advantage in that we now have to have a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. We basically have to make up the minds of the whole EU, no pressure like. No we dont. This is the perfect showcase of the weakness of democracy: No matter what we do this will almost certainly get passed. The rest of the EU has ratified it, we more than likely will. We're the only ones left to tow the line. Plus, its undemocratic in the first place to require a unanimous vote of all member states. No way should a population of 6 million people be able to hold 550 million plus people to ransom.
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Post by Barry on Apr 22, 2008 19:55:47 GMT
How are we holding them to ransom when the populations of the other countries never had a direct say in the matter? Surely you'd think this is the sort of decision that should require a referendum in every EU member state?
The only way it will get passed is if Ireland ratify the treaty as far as I can see, by amending the Eu constitution to a "treaty" it meant that no other country in the EU except Ireland would require a referendum in order to ratify the treaty. Fairly sneaky if you ask me, sure the EU constitution was shot down already and that went to public vote in more countries than here. France and the Netherlands rejected it.
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Post by Nailer on Apr 22, 2008 21:09:39 GMT
How are we holding them to ransom when the populations of the other countries never had a direct say in the matter? Surely you'd think this is the sort of decision that should require a referendum in every EU member state? . Well they're elected governments passed it. So if you believe in democracy then we are holding them to ransom. Also, I dont think this treaty is very important, especially not enough to warrant Europe wide referenda. It's not exactly doing much, except for aiming for a coherent constitution and try to solidify Europe. Now I dont nescessarily agree with that, I dont want Europe to end up being a big conglomerate of autonomous states like America is today. I also dont agree with a European defence force, but what with the shambles of a bureaucracy NATO is, it's probably nescessary. Im not sure how ill vote. I was No for a long time, but im starting to swing. Im not sure how ok it is for Ireland to suck from the pig for thirty years and then pull the plug in an un-democratic fashion when it comes to some solidarity. Still undecided though.
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Post by AdRo on Apr 22, 2008 22:06:27 GMT
the treaty is fairly important the u.s gave the eu a choice vote yes and every economic friendly source will be better than ever but we vote no they will withdraw all us business and funding and put into asia oh and if you want to read up on the treaty here is the best source: www.robert-schuman.org/doc/divers/lisbonne/en/10fiches.pdf
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Post by shane1349 on Apr 22, 2008 22:25:07 GMT
Ah i really dont think that America has the power to withdraw all MNC's out of Europe, that really ain't feasible.
I dunno im probably gonna vote no when the time come theres the whole issue of a European Army which is kinda against Ireland's own consitution. There are other things too like expanding the E.U. even further. At the moment member state economies and the European Central Bank wouldnt be able to take the strain of supporting new memeber states.
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Post by kevinkav on Apr 22, 2008 23:42:56 GMT
Well they're elected governments passed it. So if you believe in democracy then we are holding them to ransom. Also, I dont think this treaty is very important, especially not enough to warrant Europe wide referenda. Ha! The political class the only ones allowed have a view here or what? What about thepeople in Romania,France,Spain or Poland? What say the working class of Europe,the peaceful minded people in Europe? Basically anyone with a different opinion than the politicians of these countries? Let's face the facts. We're not holding anybody to ransom,and if we vote 'no' then that's it. Thank Christ for Ireland's vote. Although the EU has been sneaky so far on this (along with the Irish government),so they'll probably throw it down our throats til we say yes. The EU can say what they want about this 'solidifying' Europe and increasing our powers on the world stage. Many people (myself included) don't want another fucking super power who can walk into second and third world countries. But to do that,they need to first walk all over their own people,which is what they'll succesfully do if we vote yes. Fuck that.
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Post by kevinkav on Apr 22, 2008 23:49:50 GMT
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Post by Nailer on Apr 23, 2008 21:20:14 GMT
Well they're elected governments passed it. So if you believe in democracy then we are holding them to ransom. Also, I don't think this treaty is very important, especially not enough to warrant Europe wide referenda. Ha! The political class the only ones allowed have a view here or what? What about thepeople in Romania,France,Spain or Poland? What say the working class of Europe,the peaceful minded people in Europe? Basically anyone with a different opinion than the politicians of these countries? Let's face the facts. We're not holding anybody to ransom,and if we vote 'no' then that's it. Thank Christ for Ireland's vote. Although the EU has been sneaky so far on this (along with the Irish government),so they'll probably throw it down our throats til we say yes. The EU can say what they want about this 'solidifying' Europe and increasing our powers on the world stage. Many people (myself included) don't want another fucking super power who can walk into second and third world countries. But to do that,they need to first walk all over their own people,which is what they'll succesfully do if we vote yes. Fuck that. That's so sensationalist and off the mark it's unbelievable. It's typical of argument that has no basis, all huff and puff and no substance. How exactly are Europe politicians walking over their own people? If you believe that a decision like this requires a Europe-wide referendum, then fair enough, opinion is opinion. But for fuck sake, get rid of this bloody working-class martyr, crushed down by the big wigs in Brussels attitude. Do you know how fucking answerable the European Commission and Parliament are to European citizens? The idea of anything even remotely fascist sneaking into Europe is ridiculous. First of all, Europe is not a solid entity. France, Germany and Spain are so intrinsically different it is ridiculous. There is no round table in Brussels that all these leaders sit around rubbing their hands with glee at their ingenious deception of the "working classes". Look at how different Europe is, all over, culturally. The benefits in Europe have been economically and peace wise. Even look at the whole basis upon which the EU was founded. Whether you like it or not, the EU has been the most successful peace process the world has ever seen. Pre-EU Europe was fucking rife with war, dictatorships, and economic ruin. Germany and France were down each others throats for so long it was unimaginable that their could ever be any sort of harmony in Europe. Now its the most peaceful place in the world, and has shown absolutely no aggression to any other countries since its conception. Individual countries have made individual decisions (Britain backed the Iraq war) but the EU collectively is pacifist to its very core. Thats the reason it was founded, and that is fact. Facts speak for themselves. "The peaceful minded people of Europe?" My God, you make it out as if the masses are some Utopian society ruled by these European overlords. These European countries are democracies, thats the political system supported by the majority in every single country in Europe. They have had a say, they elected a government, elected a cabinet minister, and elected a commissioner. That's what bureaucracy is. Whether you think this decision is big enough to warrant a referendum is personal opinion, but the people of the EU have had their say, thats what bloody government is! And what happens if these governments don't do what they promised when running for election? They lose votes and fall from power. That's how it works, that hows its set up so that the "working classes" get their say, not the other way round. I mean, what the hell do you mean by "walking into third world countries"? What has the EU ever done to give you any means to question its foreign policy? Do you think the EU are going to start invading the world's minnows? Europe is the most peaceful place on earth, by fact. Human nature states that those in power fuck over those without it, but what evidence, even one case, give you cause to believe that Europe is going to start invading countries? Imperialism as America knows it is dead. Pre-EU Europe built their civilizations off of imperialism and murder, as did the rest of the developed world. But European acts of aggression in the present are nil. I'm sorry if this seems very personal, I respect your opinion Kevin and always have, but this is just way off the mark. Its the stereotypical "distrust everyone above me politically" attitude, and has no basis whatsoever.
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Post by AdRo on Apr 23, 2008 23:03:07 GMT
here i got e-mail from wsm that they want to set up a anti-treaty stall on the town
Hi Adrian, I'm Padraic, a member of the WSM based in Dublin. Alan, our national secretary passed your email address on to me. I hope its ok to contact you like this. As you may know the WSM has taken a position against the Lisbon Treaty and are calling for a no vote in the upcoming referendum. We are currently producing a leaflet and posters outlining our opposition to the Treaty which we will distribute over the coming weeks. We are also planning to organise some public meetings across the country and are hoping to do one in Wexford around the middle of May. I'm contacting you to see if you would be interested in helping us out? Our plan so far is to go down a week before the public meeting and do a stall where we can give out the leaflet and also poster around town for the meeting. Could you get back to me and let me know what you think? In solidarity, Padraic
i replied saying insead of anti-treaty day have an information day but i am going ahead with it if anyone wants to be apart if this let us know
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Post by Barry on Apr 24, 2008 12:25:36 GMT
Ha! The political class the only ones allowed have a view here or what? What about thepeople in Romania,France,Spain or Poland? What say the working class of Europe,the peaceful minded people in Europe? Basically anyone with a different opinion than the politicians of these countries? Let's face the facts. We're not holding anybody to ransom,and if we vote 'no' then that's it. Thank Christ for Ireland's vote. Although the EU has been sneaky so far on this (along with the Irish government),so they'll probably throw it down our throats til we say yes. The EU can say what they want about this 'solidifying' Europe and increasing our powers on the world stage. Many people (myself included) don't want another fucking super power who can walk into second and third world countries. But to do that,they need to first walk all over their own people,which is what they'll succesfully do if we vote yes. Fuck that. That's so sensationalist and off the mark it's unbelievable. It's typical of argument that has no basis, all huff and puff and no substance. How exactly are Europe politicians walking over their own people? If you believe that a decision like this requires a Europe-wide referendum, then fair enough, opinion is opinion. But for fuck sake, get rid of this bloody working-class martyr, crushed down by the big wigs in Brussels attitude. Do you know how fucking answerable the European Commission and Parliament are to European citizens? The idea of anything even remotely fascist sneaking into Europe is ridiculous. First of all, Europe is not a solid entity. France, Germany and Spain are so intrinsically different it is ridiculous. There is no round table in Brussels that all these leaders sit around rubbing their hands with glee at their ingenious deception of the "working classes". Look at how different Europe is, all over, culturally. The benefits in Europe have been economically and peace wise. Even look at the whole basis upon which the EU was founded. Whether you like it or not, the EU has been the most successful peace process the world has ever seen. Pre-EU Europe was fucking rife with war, dictatorships, and economic ruin. Germany and France were down each others throats for so long it was unimaginable that their could ever be any sort of harmony in Europe. Now its the most peaceful place in the world, and has shown absolutely no aggression to any other countries since its conception. Individual countries have made individual decisions (Britain backed the Iraq war) but the EU collectively is pacifist to its very core. Thats the reason it was founded, and that is fact. Facts speak for themselves. "The peaceful minded people of Europe?" My God, you make it out as if the masses are some Utopian society ruled by these European overlords. These European countries are democracies, thats the political system supported by the majority in every single country in Europe. They have had a say, they elected a government, elected a cabinet minister, and elected a commissioner. That's what bureaucracy is. Whether you think this decision is big enough to warrant a referendum is personal opinion, but the people of the EU have had their say, thats what bloody government is! And what happens if these governments don't do what they promised when running for election? They lose votes and fall from power. That's how it works, that hows its set up so that the "working classes" get their say, not the other way round. I mean, what the hell do you mean by "walking into third world countries"? What has the EU ever done to give you any means to question its foreign policy? Do you think the EU are going to start invading the world's minnows? Europe is the most peaceful place on earth, by fact. Human nature states that those in power fuck over those without it, but what evidence, even one case, give you cause to believe that Europe is going to start invading countries? Imperialism as America knows it is dead. Pre-EU Europe built their civilizations off of imperialism and murder, as did the rest of the developed world. But European acts of aggression in the present are nil. I'm sorry if this seems very personal, I respect your opinion Kevin and always have, but this is just way off the mark. Its the stereotypical "distrust everyone above me politically" attitude, and has no basis whatsoever. So this argument seems to really come down to whether or not each member state should have a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. You seem to always leave out the fact that the EU constitution was already rejected by referendum in other countries, what do you make of this? And leave out your opinion of whether or not you agree with the result and your love for the EU. Not a bit of a hint that the people of Europe don't actually want it, no? You know empirical evidence is somewhat unwise to ignore. There's a reason why it failed, and there's a reason why it was amended to avoid further referendums. Kind of like "we know what's best for them, they'll see later so we'll decide for them even if they don't want it." That doesn't seem very democratic to me. And yeah the people elected their governments but I'm not sure if their "representatives" signing the Lisbon Treaty was high up on their agenda when they voted in their respective governments.
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